Re: your mail

[Rabid Wombat <wombat@mayhem.snakecult.org>]

>> Not having been there, anything I (or you) can say is conjecture. The
>> cops

>No it's not conjecture. It's hindsight, but not conjecture. It's not
>conjecture to say that, for example, the Chinese Embassy in Belgrad
>would not have been bombed if the idjits at NATO had consulted a Fodor's
>Travel Guide. It's conjecture to say that they had such information
>and acted deliberately.

Conjecture is a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork. Not having all
the facts before me, such as witness testimonies, officer's reports, etc.,
I'd say that any judgement I made at this time would be surmised. Surmised
being "based on scanty evidence", as in, about all you or I know about
what happended is what we got from the press and this mailing list.

> a) Place 1st copcar ahead of victim's car.
> b) Place 2nd copcar behind vic's car.
>  -- vic's car is now immobilized.
> c) Place 3rd copcar to block one side of vic's car.
>  -- vic can only exit car from one side. The three copcars will
>     effectively damp any fire from vic's pistol.
> d) Place 4th copcar a few feet away from other side of vic's car.
>  -- vic has a way out of the car that is controlled. vic is immobilized.
> e) Array armed & armored cops behind 4th copcar, and behind opened
> (may I presume, armored?) doors of fore and aft copcars.

No, the doors aren't armored. The engine block and firewall are about all
that you can count on to deflect or stop a bullet, and deflect can equal
bad at close range. Glass windows don't count for shit, and only add to
the problem.

I'd have still put one car in front and one in the back, one angle on with
corner up to driver's door. Put the 12 on the driver, then turn on the
spotlight. The spot wakes up most drunks right away.

>  -- cops are safe, and can contain vic.
>  -- cops are now under no time pressure. They have forever to resolve
>     the problem. They can order pizzas if they get hungry. They
>     can go get vic's relatives. They can preposition an EMT.
>     The situation is completely contained, and nearly completely controlled.

They don't have time to "order a pizza" - the "victim" is unconcious, and
has a supposed medical condition.

The situation is not contained. There is an armed person of unknown intent
/ mental state in a public area.

There is no way the EMT is involved until the driver is disarmed. 

> f) Turn on sirens and flashing lights of all copcars.
> g) See if vic wakes up. Perhaps vic is deaf? Try flash grenade.

Yeah, right. Call Tactical (for weanie with flash grenade). Wait 45
minutes. Victim dies of medical condition. Cops didn't handle situation
fast enough because victim was minority.

> h) If not (g), bump, with increasing vigor, rear of vic's car with
> rear copcar.
> i1) If vic is still non-responsive, approach with armored cops
> and the damn SlimJim they have in the back of every cop car in CA.

No way would I stand there trying to slimjim a door with a potential
hostile sitting there with a handgun in their lap. If everything else had
failed, and I *had* to act immediately, break the passenger rear-side
window and get down immediately, and let the cover man handle the
consequences.

> One cop holds a 12ga on the vic, second cop has gas grenade, third cop
> jimmies the door.  Gas vic (CS grenade) if vic shows belligerence. 

And how are you going to gas the driver? If the window was open, you could
just reach in and unlock the door. If the windows are closed, it would
take several minutes for enough CS to get into the car, *if* there is no
wind blowing it all over the nearby residential neighborhood. CS will not
stop someone from firing - it will merely affect their aim. I've been
gassed many times, with CS, mace, and pepper, and only direct pepper
*might* stop someone from firing and hitting you at close range (and
there's no way I'd stake my life on it). I've done 10 push ups in a CS
chamber and still walked out on my own, so an assailant could damn well
empty an entire clip, even if you filled the car with CS immediately.
Given this comment, there is no way you know what the hell you are talking
about.

> If vic fires, snuff vic.

I would not wait that long, nor would I expect any reasonable person to
wait that long. If the subject raised and brought the weapon to bear,
thats it. Period. Still, they should have expected such a reaction as a
result of breaking into the car. Even in a worst-case scenario, if trying
to wake the driver up with lights/siren, rocking car failed, they could
have put one officer with the 12 on the driver, behind the driver's door,
and gone in through a back side window. Pretty hard for a passed out
person to turn all the way around and endanger anyone before the cover
officer could act, if necessary. No need for four weapons on one passed
out person.

We can argue good cops / bad cops all day long. None of us were there. I
still think your comment that they should have waited until fired on is
bullshit. I would not expect anyone to take a bullet *unnecessarily* for
30k/yr, or any sum for that matter. If the driver rasied and pointed the
weapon, shoot. Bad situation, but that's it.

> 
> Nope, those cops were just snuffing another citizen. Period. Lazy,
> brutal terrorism.

I don't think this occurred out of laziness, but that's just my opinion. I
think it was poor training, a hurried decision, and panic, like I said in
the prevoius message. Even a sociopath would likely avoid pulling the
trigger just to avoid the paperwork and media exposure, if nothing else.
You think shooting was "the easy way out" of this situation??

Given what I've heard so far, which I'm sure is not the whole story, the
cops involved screwed up. OTOH, I don't think that this was premeditated
or racialy motivated, as a previously stated.

Socio-economic, maybe. If I was walking up on a $50k auto with an armed,
middle-aged woman passed out in the front seat, I'm a little less likely
to think that the weapon might end up pointed at me than if, for example,
it is a young male in a 10 yr old Mustang with more $$ in the stereo than
the car. You'd probably make the same judgement. I'd still expect the
person to reach for the gun if I broke the window and startled them,
white, black, male, female, young, or old, and would try to plan
accordingly.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is armed is a potential assailant
until proven otherwise, given the circumstances in this case.

The cops *certainly* should have handled this better. No question. Even a
rookie straight out of the academy would have known to put one person with
the 12 on the driver and immobilzed the vehicle. There's still a big
difference between stupidity/negligence/even criminal negligence and
pre-meditated, racially motivated murder.

-r.w.