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RE: [FW1] RE: competancy of "certified" CCSA's/CCSE's
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Jud,
Publish- yes! Certify- yes! Experience- Absolutely yes!!! In fact, I
have been tasked to look for yet another Firewall-1 instructor to expand
our Check Point training. I will be looking for ALL qualifications
since no one item is justifiable for an "instant" hire. Hiring is a
long-term investment- you pour money into the candidate and hope for a
happy return. Sounds like a mutual fund! However, looking for
potential candidates sometimes involves digging into their background,
not just listening to how well he/she uses the buzzwords or how well
he/she can manipulate management! This becomes paramount because you
wouldn't believe how many wannabe's come knocking on our door due to our
location in Florida! My 2 bits.
George Freeman
Senior Security Consultant
RISCmanagement, Inc.
14602 McCormick Drive
Tampa, FL 33626
(813) 855-8111
http://www.riscman.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Judson Main [mailto:judson@btg.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:14 PM
To: fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com
Subject: Re: [FW1] RE: competancy of "certified" CCSA's/CCSE's
I suppose this topic is relevant, so, that said...
Many, many, many managers love certification simply because it coves
their ass if their choice of employee fails to meet expectations.
The concept of schooling versus real-world experience runs so deep
in our culture that anyone without a high-school diploma is essentially
blacklisted. I found out that I HAD to have a college degree, no
matter what it was. I just had to have that piece of paper to even be
considered almost anywhere I went.
Instead of fighting the tide, I advice everyone to get as many pieces
of paper into their portfolio as possible. And if you can, publish!
That really impresses people. And for every piece of paper you
have, you have that much more ammunition come time for your
annual review. A manager can justify a hefty raise MUCH more
easily if he can point to someone's newly acquired credentials.
Have a great weekend y'all!
Jud.
John Horn wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 karimi@ca.ibm.com wrote:
>
> Never, in a million years, would I for a single second consider
someone
> with ANY certification of ANY kind sans appropriate experience as
> preferable to someone sans certifications but possessing appropriate
> experience. Certification is not even in the same ball park as
experience,
> hell, not even in the same county.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't base your hiring practice on a little piece of paper that says
your
> > potential hire(ee) is smart :-)
> >
> > if you had a Checkpoint FW-1 person with 5yrs of experience and no
certificate,
> > vs. a new hire
> > saying he spent all of FOUR (4) days in a classroom to listen to
what sums up as
> > basically a Checkpoint
> > marketing course - I'd feel pretty sorry for your organization if
you hired the
> > latter.
> >
> > it's like all those people who take are on the M.S.C.E frenzy -
they spend 6
> > months in a classroom to
> > get a pretty piece of paper of Microsoft and the M.S.C.E logo on
their business
> > card and come out
> > wondering why they can't get a job and why the individual with 5
years of
> > experience who has been
> > working hands-on with NT and Netware everyday was hired instead.
And now
> > unfortunately.
> > the same thing is happening with the CCNA. (Cisco).
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________
> > k
> >
> >
> > "Ingalls, Larry" <LIngalls@terraindustries.com> on 09/03/99 10:11:16
AM
> >
> > Please respond to "Ingalls, Larry" <LIngalls@terraindustries.com>
> >
> > To: Stuart Irving/Markham/IBM@IBMCA
> > cc: "'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'"
> > <fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com>
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Irregardless of how you argue the issue, the fact still remains that
we
> > still have to play by the rules that net us the best positions, with
the
> > best companies. Every profession in the technical industry needs to
have
> > some measurement of what knowledge you have in the field. It may not
be fair
> > to those who have tons of experience and no certifications, but I
have found
> > that sometimes classroom instruction gives me more insight into what
I am
> > working with than hands on experience alone. Think of certifications
as good
> > addition to hands on experience. Besides, if the HR person is smart
they
> > will look at experience as well as certifications!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Larry Ingalls
> > WAN Administrator
> > Terra Industries
> > Office (712) 277-7331
> > Fax (712) 277-7234
> > Lingalls@terraindustries.com <mailto:Lingalls@terraindustries.com>
> > "Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right to be
wrong,
> > because then you will lose the ability to learn new things and move
forward
> > with your life." -Dr. David M. Burns
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sirving@ca.ibm.com [SMTP:sirving@ca.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:16 AM
> > To: Ingalls, Larry
> > Cc: 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> > Your arguement is why I really dislike the whole certification
> > process that
> > started with CNE's. I have seen good and bad people using
Cisco,
> > Netware, NT
> > and Checkpoint and I have yet to find any sort of relationship
> > between having a
> > certification and being able to do the work. It's about time
hiring
> > mangers
> > woke up and realized that all these tests prove is that the
person
> > can memorize
> > details in a book.
> >
> > And if you take it to the extreme, then what does a college
degree
> > even give you
> > versus learning while doing.
> >
> >
> > "Ingalls, Larry" <LIngalls@terraindustries.com> on 09/03/99
08:56:41
> > AM
> >
> > Please respond to "Ingalls, Larry"
<LIngalls@terraindustries.com>
> >
> > To: Stuart Irving/Markham/IBM@IBMCA
> > cc: "'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'"
> > <fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com>
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I hate to tell you this, and maybe it is just because you
haven't
> > looked for
> > a job in awhile, but those certifications are what help you
resume
> > stand out
> > from the crowd! I also am a strong believer in actual
experience,
> > but with
> > out something to prove that you know what you are talking about
how
> > are
> > people to know? Especially if they are looking for somebody to
fill
> > a
> > position and don't know you from a hill of beans? If you don't
> > believe in
> > certifications, then do you not also believe in a college
degree?
> > I'm not
> > being critical, but how does anyone know if you measure up if
you
> > have no
> > certifications? Just my two cents.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Larry Ingalls
> > WAN Administrator
> > Terra Industries
> > Lingalls@terraindustries.com
<mailto:Lingalls@terraindustries.com>
> > "Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right to
be
> > wrong,
> > because then you will lose the ability to learn new things and
move
> > forward
> > with your life." -Dr. David M. Burns
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sirving@ca.ibm.com [SMTP:sirving@ca.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 7:32 AM
> > To: Mike Givens
> > Cc: 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> > Why are people taking the CCSA/CCSE exams? As a person
that
> > doesn't
> > believe too
> > much in certifications I am wondering why people are
paying
> > money to
> > obtain a
> > piece of paper that says they know how to do their job.
This
> > is
> > even more valid
> > when you consider that everyone says there are wrong
answers
> > and
> > misleading
> > questions on the test.
> >
> > I know I probably won't get any answers back but thought I
> > would
> > ask.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Givens <mikeg@iowa.com> on 09/02/99 02:58:36 PM
> >
> > Please respond to Mike Givens <mikeg@iowa.com>
> >
> > To: "'Vervoort Susan'" <SueV@SAMG.com>, "'Hutchison,
Jim'"
> > <JimHutchison@metronet.ca>,
> > "'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'"
> > <fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com>
> > cc:
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We just took the course's, and the instructor stated, and
I
> > quote:
> >
> > "Study the User Guides only ! All the answers are in
those
> > books !
> > "
> >
> > I am getting ready to take the CCSA and CCSE test on the
same
> > day.
> > (In about
> > three weeks.)
> >
> > Wish me luck !
> >
> > Mike Givens MCSE
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vervoort Susan [mailto:SueV@SAMG.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:38 PM
> > To: 'Hutchison, Jim';
> > 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> >
> >
> >
> > yep. 500 is right, the only other way to get that book, is
to
> > take a
> > 2500$
> > course.
> > I however passed the CCSA without the course or the course
> > guide.
> > I used the 75$ firewall 1 manual to study from. I took the
exam
> > three times
> > though... That was because with no third party input, it
is
> > hard to
> > know
> > what to study...
> > I missed the first exam by 3 questions and the second by
1. My
> > reason was
> > that i had no idea what questions were incorrect on the
first
> > one,
> > so i
> > second guessed myself on the second exam...
> > After migrating our our firewall and doing some more
studying,
> > i
> > passed the
> > third one no problem...
> >
> > Hope that gives some insight from someone who did it the
hard
> > way...
> >
> >
> > Thanx
> > Sue V
> >
> > Susan Vervoort-Airey
> > Sales & Merchandising Group
> > Exchange & Web Administrator
> > 905-238-8058 x263
> > 416-563-5521 pager
> > mailto:suev@samg.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hutchison, Jim [SMTP:JimHutchison@metronet.ca]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:08 AM
> > > To: 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> > >
> > >
> > > ...a question about Canadian training:
> > >
> > > I've found that the best I can do for self-directed CSSE
> > training
> > is to
> > > buy
> > > the manual from a training shop for $500 and write the
exam
> > for
> > $200.
> > > Checkpoint JUST recently removed the order form for the
> > manuals so
> > only
> > > authorized traning centers can buy the material.
> > >
> > > Is this anyone else's experience? 500 clams for a
manual
> > seems
> > steep to
> > > me...
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Vervoort Susan [SMTP:SueV@SAMG.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 7:02 AM
> > > > To: 'Chris Dodd';
> > 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > > > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that manual you got in class.
> > > > And the Standard manual you can get off the cd or in a
big
> > red
> > box form
> > > > checkpoint...($75.00)
> > > >
> > > > There are 47 questions, you need 33 to pass.
> > > > I would not say they are hard, but they are tricky.
Some
> > questions have
> > > > you
> > > > trying to figure out if they mean what they are
saying, or
> > if
> > the
> > > question
> > > > is just poorly written...
> > > > I managed to pass it though...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanx
> > > > Sue V
> > > >
> > > > Susan Vervoort-Airey
> > > > Sales & Merchandising Group
> > > > Exchange & Web Administrator
> > > > 905-238-8058 x263
> > > > 416-563-5521 pager
> > > > mailto:suev@samg.com
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chris Dodd [SMTP:Chrisd@remingtonltd.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 11:29 PM
> > > > > To: 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > By 'study guide', do you just mean the Student User
> > Guide?
> > Thats the
> > > > only
> > > > > book I got in my CCSA class.
> > > > >
> > > > > How hard are the tests? I feel that I know the
class
> > material
> > very
> > > well
> > > > > and
> > > > > use the product anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > CHris
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Vervoort Susan [mailto:SueV@SAMG.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:44 AM
> > > > > To: 'Poulin, Alex';
> > 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Last time i checked (my exam is tomorrow) there were
no
> > practice
> > > > questions
> > > > > or exams.
> > > > > They say the best thing is to read the "manuals"
that you
> > can
> > order
> > > from
> > > > > checkpoint and go over the study guide.
> > > > > I found that there aren't even any third party books
out
> > there
> > yet...
> > > > (one
> > > > > in the works...)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope that helps...
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanx
> > > > > Sue V
> > > > >
> > > > > Susan Vervoort-Airey
> > > > > Sales & Merchandising Group
> > > > > Exchange & Web Administrator
> > > > > 905-238-8058 x263
> > > > > 416-563-5521 pager
> > > > > mailto:suev@samg.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Poulin, Alex [SMTP:Alex.Poulin@emergis.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 9:14 AM
> > > > > > To: 'fw-1-mailinglist@lists.us.checkpoint.com'
> > > > > > Subject: [FW1] Helo for CCSA Exam
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like help and suggestion before taking
the
> > CCSA
> > exam, I
> > > > did
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > CCSA course and I want to passe the CCSA exam
before
> > doing
> > the CCSE
> > > > > > course.
> > > > > > Anybody have sample questions or sample exam?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > Alex....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alex Poulin
> > > > > > Emergis Development
> > > > > > BCE Emergis
> > > > > > tel:(514) 868-2200 #3666 / fax:(514) 868-2324
> > > > > > alex.poulin@emergis.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
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> Regards:
>
> John Horn
> City of Tucson, IT Dept.
> jhorn1@desperate.ci.tucson.az.us
>
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